That's interesting- just watched it on DVD having seen it in the theater, and I didn't actually notice anything (although that scene where Oskar is visiting his dad and the other guy comes in- I was wondering how I would understand the dialogue/tension of that scene if I knew swedish)... I guess I do sort of have low standards for subtitles.

On the subject of this movie, I just discovered that some dude will be making an English language version of the movie. Which I don't get- are Americans incapable of following subtitles? I'll venture that there is a 99.99% chance that the English language version will be significantly inferior to the original.

Subtitles are so disappointing to me. In French definitely so and even in my limited Spanish it just seems "dumbed down" in English. An example of the difficulties of translating cultural subtleties came up recently for me in watching The Class, a French film I'd recommend, documentary style, fictional, based on true experiences teaching in the suburbs of Paris (with diverse learners). Definitely exposes some failures in the ed system there (in general, and for immigrants). At one point there are some scenes of disrespect between the student and teacher and the real meaning of this turning point is lost on English-only audiences, because, in saying "you" the student uses the "tu" form instead of the respectful "vous." They translate it as some sort of vulgarity, but it is something so slight that tips the teacher over the edge (after other class disturbances by this student) and warrants a visit to the principal's office. Using "tu" would be calculated disrespect, because this form of respect is ingrained and comes very naturally, especially for students of that age-range. It was so unsatisfying to think that people wouldn't get that, but it would obviously take a lot of explaining for a short line.

In France they mostly dub Hollywood films into French and although hearing the original language is always a pleasure, it's done really well, they can insert more natural speech and it doesn't really disturb me (although sometimes in big cities when you can chose of course I'd prefer the original). I once saw a film with Jodie Foster in it and she did her own dubbing--her French is excellent and it was a nice treat to hear her own voice in French.

I still contend that regardless of the quality of the subtitles, you lose a considerable amount watching a film this way. The entire point of having actors portray a story (rather than me simply reading a book) is that they're able to convey emotion and nuance with their voice and tone, something that is, I contend (though I know others do not agree with me on this), completely lost in foreign films. It's like I'm reading a picture a book (and possibly worse, since I'm so focused on the words I often miss some of the visual nuance). I can't tell if someone has a desperate voice, or a needling voice, or sexy voice... they just sound like they're speaking Swedish and I don't know enough about Swedish to infer anything from tone.

It's not that I can't enjoy them, I just always wonder how much more or less I'd like them if I could understand what people were saying.

The 'tu' v. 'vous' thing was bound to be lost in translation. It's a non-distinction in English that wouldn't be understood. I suppose the best you could do would be to have the student call the teacher by his/her first name, but it's not really the same.

Well you probably would do best of all to know the language being spoken, but if it's between hearing the original (foreign language) audio with subtitles vs. hearing an overdub by another actor, there is some point at which the English actor's performance is bad enough that it's better to hear the original, and in my experience that point is hit very quickly.

Some evidence of this is in watching comedy. I generally laugh when a punchline is actually uttered, rather than when I read the joke. I guess this is because timing is so important to humor. I'm not doing it deliberately, like trying to seem all fancy, it's just the way it happens. In particular I've found this is true with The Wire, which, though in (a form of) English, I rather enjoy using subtitles to watch. I still appreciate the vocal nuance.

I don't think I've ever seen a movie dubbed into English...is that done really? We tend to just remake and Hollywood-ize the movies or sub-title. In a country like France dubbing is political. I really thought I would find dubbing annoying in French, but you get lost in the story as it is and you get so much more dialogue than subtitles can provide you in quick text phrases on the bottom of the screen. Maybe because it was French it was less annoying than it would be for me in English. Comedy is different, although the subtitles are always a step behind so in general the laughs come first and you could miss the nuance by reading rather than seeing the gesture.

Anyway, I still want movies in original languages, so I don't know why I'm arguing in favour of dubbing (unless it's in France or other countries concerned with language maintenance...and Québec, where mostly their dubbing is French from France...also political. Although I'm happy to report the Simpsons has both a France French and Quebecois version).

I thought in Paris most cinephiles would only see films in V.O. or version originale. Italy loves dubbing.

Cartoons are different. I heavily prefer dubbed cartoons.

One of Herzog's early films (Nosferatu, I think) was shot with the actors speaking English, then dubbed by those actors in german, then dubbed by different (and inferior) actors in English. It was very annoying -- I first tried watching in German, then noticed the lips didn't synch, then switched to English and the lips synched (mostly) but the voice talent was awful. So I switched back to German. Really awkward all around.

No, it was Aguirre, Wrath of God. Nosferatu was apparently shot in both English and German, but Aguirre was shot in English because it was the only common language across the actors (wikipedia).

Anthony, you're right about the V.O. for those that know English, but most cinemas don't have it, especially outside Paris. I think it's mostly Boulevard St. Germain that has the V.O cinemas (I think we talked about that once--did you stay near there?). We should stop talking about this before I want to go back. I think dubbing is the law in places like Italy and France (unlike Sweden and Germany for instance). Definitely for TV programs--I remember watching Seinfeld in Italian, not that I speak it or understood anything, but I'm always interested in the voices. It's great linguistic practice to watch an episode you've already seen in a foreign language.

Rumble in the Bronx, as I recall, was set in New York and featured a number of white actors, but as the whole thing was dubbed into English, which was just sort of confusing.

When I popped in the Let the Right One In DVD, it began automatically with the English dub. I found the performances grating so I switched to subtitles fairly quickly. (That's one problem with dubbing -- the voice talent is often weak.)

In some cases, great care is taken to make a quality English dub, usually for animation. For example, I like nearly all of the performances of the English dub of Princess Mononoke.

Back in high school, when I was briefly on the edges of anime fandom, I discovered that anime fans really hate dubs. Some of them make their own subtitles too because they're nitpicky about the translation. Maybe you know all this already.

In any case, I like subtitles because I can learn things about the original language, if I happen to know a bit of it, and second-guess the subtitlers' choices.